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@Delta

For the record, I think almost everything you wrote is wrong or (more often) misses the point, but I don't have the energy to respond to all of it, so here are the highlights.

No, the only real danger of these groups is their increasing number of terrorist (and terror-ish) attacks.

They've been growing for years regardless. However pathetic their numbers look right now, their rallies are (or at least were before this last weekend) still ten times larger than they were a couple years ago

ACTUALLY1, that FP article you cite shows that right wing terrorist attacks have been down (slightly). There were 13 under Bush and 11 under Obama. I wanted to find some good stuff on the SPLC website, but their reports are a mess, and I gave up. From what I could tell, there's a ton of year-to-year noise in white supremacist group membership, but if you drew a twenty or thirty year trendline it'd be relatively flat2. Which was exactly my point. It wasn't that they weren't a threat, it's that they are a small threat3and have been more or less a consistently small threat for decades. I see no evidence that the rise of Spencer is any more (or even close) to the patriot movement shit that brought us Ruby Ridge, Waco, OKC, and an army of republicans blaming Clinton, Janet Reno, and the ATF.

And for the record, I loathe the 3%ers, Oathkeepers, etc. And the ACLU has once again made the right decision not to defend them

Oh, yeah, and the Nazis-or-close-enough in the White House. Those ones are a wee bit of a danger.

ACTUALLY, they don't seem to have accomplished anything. The Bannon/Miller immigration push was invalidated within hours, and otherwise the Trump administration has been pretty mainstream GOP. Their danger is almost exclusively symbolic at this point, and now Bannon is out, so meh.

Fuck that. Full-court press. Show up, outnumber them, ID them, get them fired, mock the everloving pigfuck out of them, drive their websites into the darkweb, tear down the racist statues they love so much, and for the love of gods keep pressing their living meme of a president and everyone associated with him at every opportunity.

MAYBE?, NO, YES BUT SOMEWHERE ELSE, CONDITIONAL YES, NO, YES, YES…, HELL YES, NO.

I think I am okay with driving their websites on to the dark web, though I have the sorts of "who decides what speech is unacceptable" qualms we should all be having and that I am really genuinely mystified that you do not have.

As far as ID'ing them, getting them fired, banning them from OKCupid, all that stuff, I have some serious reservations. These are mostly angry, violent young men, bitter at their lot in life. At this point they're willing to go wave tiki torches and flags despite having tethers to civil society like having a job, and being in school. What are they going to be willing to do once they're well and truly cast out. When they can't even work at hot dog on a stick anymore, when they go from having a bleak future to no future? I'm worried that we are taking a bunch of dumbass shitlords, and turning them into Dylan Roofs or Elliott Rodgers. What if we, like, tried to rehabilitate some of them? Not the Richard Spencers and David Duke's of the movement, but the dumbasses like this?

One of the problems that is rampant on the left4 is the conflation of what feels good vs. what works, or its siblings What is Right vs. what is effective, What is vs. What ought to be. This is my problem with Antifa. It's not that they're bad5, it is that they are not helping. They are giving the Nazis what they want (a fight) and giving their apologists what they want (a plausible "both sides do it" excuse).

The best response to things like Friday's tiki torch is to ignore it6 when it happens and, if necessary, show up in force after they're gone. Last nights vigil was very good, what preceded it was very bad.

Look, my main point is that, like all terrorists, they do not have the power to achieve their goals alone, so they are using the time honored strategy of baiting us. They are showing up looking for a fight, to be smeared across CNN chyrons for days, to get a pat on the head from the president, to shift their overton window. Let's not give them what they want, maybe?

like the guy who just got arrested planning to re-bomb Oklahoma City - which are a low threat by absolute death count3, but still a higher threat than Islamic extremists, which manage to get a large chunk of the state chasing them

If your point is that we should pay more attention to domestic terrorists than islamic terrorists, then I agree! If your solution is to pay more attention to domestic terrorists then I disagree. We are fucking obsessed with terrorism, and the FBI is already pretty enthusiastic about investigating it. Considering their propensity for entrapment, which the OKC thing is looking like, they might be a little too enthusiastic.

but also the more established and (publicly) polite racist assholes like Sessions

Yeah, look, I won't pass up an opportunity to say "Fuck Jeff Sessions". But this ties directly into one of my points. Obsessing over a very small threat like Richard Spencer gives cover to actual big threats like the mainstream GOP, and whaddya know, Sessions (who is quite popular among GOP senators) ran with the opportunity. So the only member of the administration who is getting anything done, who has a long history of being a terrible racist, and whose policy choices reflect that perfectly, has been handed a wonderful opportunity to present himself as reasonable by contrasting himself with the enemy du jour. Maybe we should avoid giving him these opportunities?

Then there is the general history and legacy of the United States of America - which, honestly, is kinda chock-full of evil shit, but this particular evil (racist assholes) is present at pretty much every point. Little in the alt-right's playbook is newer than 1968, with the possible exception of swarming the internet with rancid memes (and even that has precedent). This is the biggest threat. And it's the hardest to grapple with, especially for Americans.

Sigh7. This is exactly why I am anxious about signal boosting them and inflating their threat or exaggerating their importance. The right is dominated by lots of regular ass racists whose political philosophy is little more than "fuckin libtards, get out!". It would be really unfortunate if we encouraged these people to associate themselves with Nazis. And all we've done in the last week is do exactly that, especially including…

And then "the media pushed Trump to denounce them" - probably because that's the bare minimum expected of a President

Yes, of course it is. BUT, anybody who has paid any attention at all over the last 18 months8 knew exactly what he would do. That's why they pushed him rather than accept his meager statement the day before. They wanted that soundbyte, and they got it. But what does it actually give us? The people who are inclined to care already knew he was a virulent racist, so this doesn't convince anyone. The people who are disinclined to care will be reassured by Fox News that they don't have to. And the Nazi's just got endorsed by the President of the United States, who has a lot of avid followers who are not Nazis. Jesus Christ. Is this what they mean when they say you played yourself?

And now, for the disagreement that probably precedes most of our disagreement:

Also now the GOP gets the choice of lashing themselves closer to Trump, thus losing support, or attempting to repudiate him, thus losing support. From someone who agrees with you about the larger problem being the Republican Party at large, this is a good thing.

When are you gonna wake up and realize this isn't how things work anymore? We are a polarized society driven almost exclusively by partisanship and stabilized by gerrymandering. There is a stable number of left-leaning voters and a stable-number of right leaning voters. Elections are won and lost via turnout and district boundaries. Which is why the GOP has gerrymandered the shit of the country and has pushed so hard to disenfranchise Dem-inclined voters. The GOP will lash themselves to Trump for precisely as long as it is too dangerous to ditch him, and not a second longer. Do you think they'd rather have Pence as president? OF COURSE THEY WOULD, and always have. But if they dump Trump while he's still popular, they'll risk splitting the party. Which they are clearly unwilling to do. Regardless, Right leaning voters will hem and haw about the direction of the party, but they will always come home, just as they did in 2016. Partisanship trumps Principles. Meanwhile, shit like this never hurts Trump, because him being an unpretentious racist and misogynist is a feature not a bug. His numbers will dip some over the next couple weeks, probably to fairly close to what his numbers were in the primaries, and then they'll slowly go back up as those Republicans who don't like Nazis settle back into their normal "fuck libtards" mode. Trump has survived countless career ending gaffes at this point, let's not let this one also empower Nazis?9

@Fap

I'd recommend listening to his actual content, and not the caricature that is often portrayed.

I'm not familiar with Peterson, and for all I know he's a lunatic, but this sentiment was THE big takeaway of the Google Memo fiasco. Lots of people and sites I usually respect spread the most asinine, defamatory mischaracterizations of what it said10. In the age of Twitter and outrage culture, you really can't take anyone's word aanymore.

@Kita

Considering I'm living in a country where not calling someone by their preferred pronouns is an arrestable offence, I'm finding it hard to believe that.

So, setting aside the validity of this, which @Delta addressed, this is not a goal but a method of achieving the goal. The goal is "Trans equality," which I agree with! Like I said, I agree with a lot of the goals. My disagreements tend to be methodological and philosophical. The abandonment of rationality for emotionality, the rejection of science when it is even slightly inconventient, the obsession with privilege theory and critical theory, the tendency towards authoritarian remedies. These are all things that I oppose, but, for the most part, they tend to be held by smallish groups of academics and activists, and are a bigger threat to progress11 than they are to society.


ADDENDUM:

I am really super duper amused that the President Bannon Meme paid off so quickly. Trump alienating Breitbart will hurt him far more than defending Nazis will. His approval rating floor with Breitbart was probably like 30%, which would be >50% of GOP. What's his floor without Brietbart? Could be in a range where the GOP are willing to jump ship and impeach.

by HawkingtonHawkington, 18 Aug 2017 23:22

And Bannon got the ban hammer.

Hopefully the beginning of the end for an unholy union.

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 18 Aug 2017 19:34

Quick addendum to Hawk's original point: look at the size of tonight's really at UVA. This is what real numbers look like, not the couple hundred bro-supremecists.

This is a real crowd, and it was, apparently, done without social media.

/Hats off

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 18 Aug 2017 01:17

I mean, you get a crowd of extreme leftists into the same place as a crowd of extreme rightists, and ta-da. Flame, meet gasoline.

Anyway. I'm neither educated nor motivated enough to continue to participate in this conversation. I'm going to have fun playing Splatoon 2, instead of making myself miserable over the idiots we employed to represent our national interests.

by KitaSaturnyneKitaSaturnyne, 17 Aug 2017 22:48

So, had a tinfoil-hat level of thought today. I can see a narrative path on the show, to resolve who gets the throne, that's not the fanbait that is the Dany/Jon marriage:

  • Jon bends the knee
  • His parentage is revealed, but he renounces his claim, because he just wants to fight zombies.
  • Dany, unable to have children, aware of his heritage, and trusting him, names him successor
  • The Targaryen restoration unites the Seven Kingdoms
  • Dany dies (possibly Nissa Nissa1 style).
  • Jon fights the last battle, and either dies winning, or renounces the throne
  • His claim falls to Sansa, as the Targaryen line is broken, and she is heir to the Stark line, which was legally wed to the throne, through Lyanna.

That's some crazy shit, but it fits the themes of the show. The books are muddier. Gendry is the wrench, here, as he represents the competing Baratheon line.

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 17 Aug 2017 22:33

@Kita & Delta

Re: Trump Not Naming the Nazis
I think this was only so important because they were claiming fealty to him. If they were just there, he could have gotten by with "stop fighting". But, since one of these asshole-parades got murderous in his name, he's almost obliged to hit the softly-lobbed-ball, and declare, "I don't support you. I never supported you. Stop using my name to back your disgusting ideology."

He… didn't.1

Re: Peterson
I watched a lot of his stuff, after his name popped up. I actually find him to be very interesting, with a lot of good points. Sure, he's an ideological fighter, but his is an uncommonly heard point of view, with a lot of good elements. It's being misused by some pretty bad people, but that could be said about just about every philosopher of note.

I'd recommend listening to his actual content, and not the caricature that is often portrayed.2

Re: Qualitative Differences Between ANTIFA and the Alt-Right
The main qualitative difference is the pattern of red and black they prefer on their flags.3

Both groups are collectivist, anti-democratic organizations, who despise the concepts of individualism, liberty, and free thought/speech. They group the world into armed camps of us/them, and wage street violence in defense of their tribe, in an attempt to win the non-fighting masses onto the 'good' side.4

Communists versus fascists.

The only real difference is that for some reason, we don't view communism with the same disgust as fascism. Both of these ideologies are murderous, cancerous things, and should be dismissed as such. ANTIFA is the exact mirror of the Neo Nazis: an undead remnant of an evil ideology, whose arguments must be ripped apart.5

Because this is where we can stand, in defense of liberalism - we can confront your arguments, without confronting your person. We can say, 'you're wrong', but not have to eliminate the wrongthinker6. We can fight viciously, without totality. We can disagree, without violence. Should that other cross the line, and engage in such violence, then we answer, fully, but we do not think ourselves the owner of anyone's thoughts, and we expect the same in return.


EDIT: Forgot to add, in the parallels: both have a victim-script. The villain changes (patriarchy/whiteness/fascism on one hand, the Jews/globalists/communism on the other), as does the victim (POC/LGBTQ vs 'whites'), but the script is the same. Both frame their struggle as life-and-death, a kill-or-be-killed genocide against a monolithic other. It's a damning worldview, that cannot compromise, or tolerate another. It can only win, or die.

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 17 Aug 2017 19:46

@Kita

Considering I'm living in a country where not calling someone by their preferred pronouns is an arrestable offence…

Did you move out of Canada? If not, then you still don't.

I mean, if you fire someone for being trans, or evict them, or continually misgender them at work, or deny them service, then you've likely opened yourself up to a civil suit. So don't do that. (But you shouldn't be doing any of those things anyways.)

But "arrestable offence"? Lemme put it this way: don't trust the legal analysis of Jordan Peterson (et al). Not exactly Canada's finest legal mind(s).

…but it's not good enough because he didn't denounce the groups too.

That one's simple: decrying and disavowing those groups is the easiest gimme in all of American politics. Even Sessions managed to. But when said groups show up wearing your hat and shouting your name? Yes, you are in fact supposed to denounce the groups. And he couldn't do it, because either A) he doesn't really mind them and wants to keep their support, or B) he agrees with them wholeheartedly.

His press conference on Tuesday pretty much chose B).

(Also: he didn't even originally properly denounce the act itself; that was the insincere statement a couple days later, which he then walked back entirely on Tuesday.)

by Delta VDelta V, 17 Aug 2017 18:51

@Hawk

Heh. So they're moving the goal posts.

… I think their goals are largely noble.

Considering I'm living in a country where not calling someone by their preferred pronouns is an arrestable offence, I'm finding it hard to believe that.

The best part is that there's talk of his party trying to pass a law where if parents don't call their children by their preferred pronouns, social services can come and seize the child.

Aaaaand the fucker is bringing1 demands that there be more poly-gendered bathrooms in more businesses to the NAFTA conference. Poly-gendered bathrooms. NAFTA. Freaking NAFTA.

Anyway.

@The Mani Mani

Heh, thanks. I really put myself in a bind in that moment. If you're going to mention Trump, make sure you're not in a car doing 80KM/H at the time.

@Whoever

The whole "Trump's condemnation isn't good enough" thing is weird. He condemns the actions of those unequivocably, but it's not good enough because he didn't denounce the groups too. Apparently, there's a metric for acceptability for this. Denouncing those kinds of violent acts? Done. Denounce the people who commit them? Yes. But he didn't denounce the groups they belong to, so the rest doesn't count.

That said, his refusal to address groups like the KKK and such looks suspicious. But it's not like they'd care if anyone disavowed them. No one's going to be like, "well, Trump doesn't like us. Time to shut things down forever. Oh well. It was a good run while it lasted."

Last… no comments here about impending nuclear armageddon? I mean, it's North Korea, but still. It must be one of those things where a 1% chance must be treated as a 100% chance, right?

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm going to go call a woman "him" so I can get thrown in jail. Or continue my current playthrough of the original Deus Ex. Whichever is easier.2

by KitaSaturnyneKitaSaturnyne, 17 Aug 2017 17:34

I was totally wrong, in that Jamie didn't start last episode in chains. So I'm going to refrain from further speculation on that front, because I'm not quite sure anymore where they're going with him. (I am, however, willing to find out.)

WRT the Westeros Wormhole System:

Bitch bitch bitch whine whine whine moan moan moan. :P

Like, do you guys really want to waste time watching people walk everywhere endlessly, like the whole fourth season? Do you really want whole episodes painstakingly marking the weeks (and months?) it takes for everyone to march to where they're going? Or marking the days at sea as characters travel up and down the coast? Or counting the (mere) hours it takes Dany to ride Drogon from Dragonstone to Blackwater Rush and back?

I for one am perfectly comfortable just getting to the damn point already. We've spent lots (and lots and lots) of time with characters on the road, when we weren't quite sure where they'd be going. That's over now, as it should be.

by Delta VDelta V, 17 Aug 2017 05:11

The only real danger of these groups is the cyclical, self-reinforcing narrative of each other.

It does not convince me that the Alt-Right is any more IRL dangerous than they've been for the last 20 years.

No, the only real danger of these groups is their increasing number of terrorist (and terror-ish) attacks. And the jumped-up, rifle-toting Three Percenters et al that show up to provide "security" (read: contest the state's monopoly on violence).

Oh, yeah, and the Nazis-or-close-enough in the White House. Those ones are a wee bit of a danger.

Also, frankly: I'm tired of the godsdamned "they reinforce each other!" narrative. Drive the Nazis et al out of the public sphere, and Antifa et al go back to their thousand different causes1. Also, they aren't a bunch of Nazis2.

Mostly, though, I'm tired of how all these arguments circle back to the left's supposed responsibility for the current polarization, as if it wasn't the right (both far and not-so-far) who've spent literally decades stewing in their own conspiratorial shit. As if these pathetic tryhard Nazis - and the other 62 million who voted for their orange avatar - were just pushed there by the left. As if the right only ever merely reacts.

Horseshit. And in the case of these Nazis, especially horseshit.

If all Richard Spencer can turn out is a few hundred people, I'm not even sure we should counter-protest.

Fuck that. Full-court press. Show up, outnumber them, ID them, get them fired, mock the everloving pigfuck out of them, drive their websites into the darkweb, tear down the racist statues they love so much, and for the love of gods keep pressing their living meme of a president and everyone associated with him at every opportunity.

My fear is that confronting them legitimizes them, reinforces their narrative, and helps them grow.

I really, honestly think you have this one wrong. They've been growing for years regardless. However pathetic their numbers look right now, their rallies are (or at least were before this last weekend) still ten times larger than they were a couple years ago. And the number of people willing to defend or excuse them on air is a hundred times more.

Leaving them to hump their anime pillows in obscurity has not fucking worked.

In a (very abstract) way, it's similar to the North Korea dilemma, in that the window to contain or dissuade them from stirring up shit is now closed. They're here, and they can no longer be ignored away.

If we want to disambiguate "they", here, then sure:

1. There are the polo-shirted, tiki-waving dweebs, shouting about Jews and wondering why everyone hates them. If it were just them, you might be right to counsel nothing more than withering contempt and gleeful, emasculating mockery.

2. There are the militia types, and I'm half-convinced they're just a more-expensive version of the LARPers of 1). But they do keep strutting around with rifles, in sufficient numbers to be worrisome. (Also they're getting bigger in Canada, too - just usually less heavily-armed in public.)

3. There are the white nationalists who actually carry out terrorist (or -ish) attacks - or try to, like the guy who just got arrested planning to re-bomb Oklahoma City - which are a low threat by absolute death count3, but still a higher threat than Islamic extremists, which manage to get a large chunk of the state chasing them.

4. There are the white nationalists - Nazi or adjacent - currently pulling the levers of the executive branch of the federal government. Not just Trump, and not just his alt-right hangers-on, but also the more established and (publicly) polite racist assholes like Sessions (and, increasingly, Kelly). These ones are a danger on at least five different levels, but only three are directly related to being racist assholes.

5. Then there is the general history and legacy of the United States of America - which, honestly, is kinda chock-full of evil shit, but this particular evil (racist assholes) is present at pretty much every point. Little in the alt-right's playbook is newer than 1968, with the possible exception of swarming the internet with rancid memes (and even that has precedent). This is the biggest threat. And it's the hardest to grapple with, especially for Americans.4

@Hawk

Five days ago, a hundred or so dweebs in polo shirts showed up to a park with tiki torches, the left lost all perspective and turned it into an assault on democracy..

I really really think you have this one wrong.

The dweebs in polo shirts got ID'd and publicly humiliated. That wasn't the tipping point.

The tipping point was when one of said dweebs previously holding a wooden shield and failing to reenact Crecy drove a car into a crowd and killed someone. And then "the media pushed Trump to denounce them" - probably because that's the bare minimum expected of a President - "and he couldn't bring himself to do it" - because he's one of them, and he made that clear yesterday. Even from an entirely craven perspective, this was a utter fucking disaster of PR. But it wasn't the heiling hordes, nor was it the left in general, that got this one rolling; it was the car, and the dead person, and Trump siding with the out-and-out racists.

Also now the GOP gets the choice of lashing themselves closer to Trump, thus losing support, or attempting to repudiate him, thus losing support. From someone who agrees with you about the larger problem being the Republican Party at large, this is a good thing.

by Delta VDelta V, 17 Aug 2017 04:54

@All

Re: Valonqar

My thoughts are that Cersei is going to be a complete bitch about something1. Maybe she'll try and kill Tyrion under a banner of truce. Maybe she'll pull her army back during a pitched fight, to try and "come out better" for the war-to-come. Maybe she'll insist that Jaime do something awful to Bronn, and when he doesn't, she'll come after him, directly.

In any case, she's not going to live to successfully deliver this 'baby'.


Re: Westeros Fast Travel System

If the leaks are to be believed, the plot of S07E06 has an even crazier warp drive being used. We're nearing jump drives at this point.2

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 17 Aug 2017 02:21

@ Hawk & Kita

There has been1 some blowback from the right. Shapiro laid into Trump pretty solidly2, but he's always been cautious of the Trump admin, to put it lightly.

I've been watching some footage of Spencer/Taylor/etc talk, and it's rather interesting.3 Their dialogue is swappable, nearly word for word, with their "arch enemies" on the left, but then, at the conclusion of their speech, they drop "white" in where the usual intersectional victims lie. This, combined with some interesting points I've seen about how membership in the alt-right is psychologically parallel with membership in a gang, really does set up some interesting contrasts.

The only real danger of these groups is the cyclical, self-reinforcing narrative of each other. The alt-right marches, ANTIFA attacks, the alt-right escalates. Repeat.4

They really aren't the "enemies" of each other. They are collectivist shits who are enemies of liberalism, democracy, and individualism. Their message is the same. "This is a war, pick your tribe." They only disagree on who should win the war, never whether there should be a war, at all. The point of these fights isn't to beat the other side, at all. The point is to convince the people not swinging poles to jump into the fray. Both groups are essentially play-fighting, while they argue that our system of democracy is wrong, and that we should all tribe the fuck up.

Fuck that noise. I stand for "all people, equal under the law, governed by mutual consent". And if that's a problem, then we have a problem.5

I've started to hear more calls for a "stand down" from more people on the centrist commentariat. Telling people to straight-up avoid the upcoming "free speech" rallies, since armed groups are coming to rumble.

As much as I hate to say it, I think some heavy police cordoning at these events might be necessary, until tempers cool. My big fear is that the media seeing ratings-blood might form a third leg of a triangle based on mutual escalation.6

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 17 Aug 2017 02:12

Two vague thoughts on GoT:

1) I think I know where this Jaime business is headed, but I'm real bad at predicting Lannister related plot points so who knows.

2) I'm looking forward to the Season Finale closing scene where we learn Dany's true power comes from her portal that lets here and her allies (and occasionally Euron) transcend space and time1.

by HawkingtonHawkington, 17 Aug 2017 00:41

@Kita

Lastly, I find it interesting that the leftists who discriminate against white people have so little insight as to never realize that they are repeating the cycle of racism, rather than ending it.

The official reasoning, is that racism is institutional enforced, you can't discriminate against your oppressors, because they control the institutions1. There's literally no such thing as racism against white people or sexism against men, in their eyes. And I get that, to some degree. But I think it's predicated on a very conveniently reductive (and selective) definition of discrimination, that is shared by no one outside certain pockets of academia. The left has many problems, but one of the bigger ones is redefining common words and then (language) policing people who use the common meanings2. It's a total failure of communication, which is kind of integral to activism. If the social justice left doesn't figure out that the point of activism is to convince other people, rather than sneer at them from their ever narrowing circlejerk, they're never going to accomplish anything. Which is unfortunate, because I think their goals are largely noble.

@edisnooM

I don't think completely ignoring them is necessarily the way to go since if no one speaks against them they may think they are in the right through silent assent.

They already think they're right, and, to be honest, I don't really care if they think they're right. We will never ever eliminate evil ideas. My fear is that confronting them legitimizes them3, reinforces their narrative, and helps them grow. Five days ago, a hundred or so dweebs in polo shirts showed up to a park with tiki torches, the left lost all perspective and turned it into an assault on democracy, the media pushed Trump to denounce them4 and he couldn't bring himself to do it5. This puts the GOP and its various propaganda wings in the awkward position of turning on Trump or excusing Nazis. I have absolutely no confidence they'll make the right choice6. THIS is what they mean when they talk about shifting the Overton window, and it's what emboldens and empowers them. If they had just been ignored or laughed at in the first place, perhaps met with a riot police "escort" so they don't get out of hand, we wouldn't be in this position. Maybe time will prove me wrong, but this feels very much like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me7 .

Oh, and did Trump coin Alt-left or was that already a thing?

I think it was coined by centrist types to describe marxist and ANTIFA types. The message the center-left has taken from the Tea Party and the Alt-Right is to disavow the fringe, lest it metastasize.

@All
I've been struck by how many of the ID'd Nazis seem to be dumb 20 year old shitlords who thought they were White Supremacy LARPing, doing it for the lulz, and have completely imploded under any scrutiny. It does not convince me that the Alt-Right is any more IRL dangerous than they've been for the last 20 years.

by HawkingtonHawkington, 17 Aug 2017 00:31

Re: Politics!

Just catching up on everything, good posts all, @Kita sorry for your self-inflicted "Trumping" :-)

The thing about Nazi's is the that are so very ingrained in western countries as "the baddies", to be fought back against with dramatic music playing in the background. Which may be the course of action to take when facing off against tanks, blitzkriegs etc. But against the sort of people who gather together and explain how it makes perfect sense that they think white people are better but they're totally not racist, maybe not so much.

I don't think completely ignoring them is necessarily the way to go since if no one speaks against them they may think they are in the right through silent assent. But going off and getting into fisticuffs probably isn't the way to go either, at that point you're kind of sinking to their level and letting them play the victim.

Anywho, just my thoughts.

Oh, and did Trump coin Alt-left or was that already a thing?

by edisnooMedisnooM, 16 Aug 2017 23:17

@Hawk

Just have to say that it's really weird for someone to take a rational, logical view on those events, tragic as they are.

Good weird, though.

But, I'm sure the ever-trustworthy media1 will report objectively on the events with no underlying motive or narrative whatsoever. Just like the Defend Europe mission.

Random story.

I went out to dinner with my brother and my mom a few months ago, shortly after 'covfefe' was released to the masses on Twitter. If I haven't made it clear by now, I've been done with Trump-related stuff since a few months before the ballots were cast. But, I couldn't resist mentioning covfefe as a joke, and so I did. My brother and mom proceeded to spend the next few minutes talking about whatever the latest Trump-related drama was.

I sat there sighing, wishing I could escape Trump. It was not to be at that moment, but I decided to use that time to recognize something in myself. My thoughts by the mid-point of their conversation: "Yeah, I did it to myself, mentioning covfefe. I'll just sit here quietly now and accept my punishment."

Nothing quite like calling oneself out for one's own bullshit. Also, yeah. Hearing about Trump feels like a punishment at this point. I can't begin to tell you how done with it I am.

Lastly, I find it interesting that the leftists who discriminate against white people have so little insight as to never realize that they are repeating the cycle of racism, rather than ending it.

Now if you'll excuse me, today is a day off work, so I'ma probably watch porn or something. You all take care.

by KitaSaturnyneKitaSaturnyne, 14 Aug 2017 19:57

So as a semi-response/semi-addendum there's two points I wanted flesh out:

1. This is a nice boon for Republicans. They spent a big chunk of the last 6 months trying to take away healthcare from tens of millions of people in order to fund tax cuts for themselves. Their policy goals are fundamentally unreasonable, even to their own voters. But now they can put out some platitudes about how "deeply unAmerican" all this business in Charlottesville is, and how we should cherish America's diversity1, and present themselves as being within the mainstream. Don't let a pathetically tiny number of super duper radicals give cover to the hundreds of regular radicals that hold all branches of government right now.

2. If all Richard Spencer can turn out is a few hundred people, I'm not even sure we should counter-protest. The mere act of protest legitimizes them as a threat, which they clearly haven't earned given this weekend's showing, and it just gives them targets for their violence. If they're marching around a park by themselves, there's no one to intimidate or beat up. Noone to run over2. We should be treating them like the half-wit LARPers that they are. There was a park near my old place that hosted a medieval faire every so often. On the way to the grocery store, I'd drive by that park and think "Huh, those weirdos in chain mail and flowing dresses are at it again. I guess it is a nice day for it." And then I'd forget they existed until it happened again. That's about how we ought to treat Spencer unless he demonstrates that he can turn out more people than fit in a Middle School auditorium.

Bonus Point:

3. My original stance on Antifa was "if you don't want to get beat up by anti-fascists, don't be a fascist. Not that complicated." But that was dumb. Violence begets violence, and, I suspect, fuels turnout for these sorts of groups. Nothing like ramping up the culture wars to recruit the culture warriors.

by HawkingtonHawkington, 14 Aug 2017 03:06

Dude, Hawk… +1.

The car appears to be a political terror attack, but that doesn't make it any less of a 'pathetic loser takes out psychosis on perceived enemies' situation than if he did it because the birds ordered him. He should be tried, and punished due the crime.

My only concern here is the see-saw of violence and scaremongering. I warned of violence after the first Berkeley riot, where the ANITFA crowd used sticks, stones, and pepper. The right wing replied with flags, sticks, and displays of force. The left answered with M80s and fire. Now the neonazis brought a car.

This is a bad progression, and it looks awful.

… but, as you said, this is optics, not truth. Most of the counterprotestors (thousands) were not the blue-haired SJWs or the Hammer & Sickle ANTIFA crowd. They were decent people, telling the Nazis to STFU and GTFO. The white nationalists? There were a pathetic amount of them, as you stated, and they planned for this, bussed in, and showed up to get a "war". Their show of force was pathetic, and they lost the optics war, with their stupid fucking runic banners and "where's Waldo" of SS iconography1. They lost the messaging, before some assbag slammed a fucking car through a crowd.

To fight them, pull back the lens, arrest these assbags when they start shit, and laugh at the would-be-fascists in their polo shirts.

Quick Aside: Favorite way to piss off the Alt-Right, today:

  • Ask them what "Nazi" stands for. They will answer "national socialist". Then, inform them that adding racism to socialism doesn't make it any less stupid. They'll pretzel themselves. It's pretty funny.

These guys are sad fucking jokes.

I cannot agree with you more strongly. Defeat these clowns with mockery, facts, and perspective. Don't indulge their narrative.

by Fapmaster5000Fapmaster5000, 14 Aug 2017 00:29

If 200 neo-Nazi degenerates show up to a park and no one is there to live-tweet it or take tightly framed pictures, did it really even happen?

The default state of America, for as a long as I can remember, is one of barely contained panic. Left, Right, it doesn't matter. Everyone is disproportionately afraid of something. Saddam Hussein is going to NUKE US! Muslims are going to implement Sharia Law! There's a RAPE CRISIS on college campuses! Crime is out of control! None of these things are actually true. Crime is a year removed from a 40+ year low. The last time America was this safe, my parents were in middle school. That 1 in 5 stat on sexual assault? It was extremely misleading and further mischaracterized by those whose confirmation bias it… confirmed. The stat for women who are actually raped on campus is closer to 1 in 500(Table 1), with overall rates of sexual violence in the 5-6 per 1000 range1. Sexual violence, like all violence, have declined precipitously since their peaks 30 years ago. Any number that's not 0 in infinity is bad of course, but 6 in 1000 is not quite moral panic worthy.

The Richard Spencer neo-Nazi movement is the panic du jour, and it's even less real than the others. This was a nationally recruited event2, planned for months, and it looks like the tiki-torch rally managed to get all of 150ish people. One-Hundred and Fifty people, out of a nation of 330,000,000 are willing to go march with Richard Spencer in Virginia to "Unite the Right". Compare that to the 7600 people that went to fucking Bronycon last year. Fifty times as many people are willing to pay money to go do whatever it is Bronies do, than are willing to march with Richard Spencer. So, naturally, our response was to signal boost the hell out of it. People watched it live on Twitter and Facebook. Tightly framed shots of it have been everywhere. Look at this fucking picture. This picture is scary! It's intimidating! Look at these respectable looking white dudes with polo shirts and porn mustaches. These aren't the inbred meth-addicted weirdos we associate with white supremacy. And they've taken over the courthouse! This picture is a propaganda boon. It's tightly framed, making the subject much more immediate. It's shot from ever so slightly below face level, making them look larger than life. The Nazi's are juxtaposed with that State-House looking building, which carries its own connotations. This picture, and the hyperventilating that came with it, suggests that instead of being a small number of pathetic losers (which they are), these people are actual threats. One of the best things that happened it the last year was photojournalists taking wide angle shots of Trump Rallies. If only they'd started it two years earlier, fewer people would have jumped on the bandwagon.

Look, I get it, we made a name for ourselves putting down Hitler3, and it is disconcerting to see people openly marching with Nazi flags and salutes. I'm not saying we should ignore the rise of the far right, but we keep a little perspective about it. A nationally planned event drew… 100-200 people. There are more people at Target on a tuesday afternoon than that. We should ignore when small groups rally in small places. These people feed on conflict and fear. 95% of Milo's appeal was that purple haired SJWs hated him, so he went to the most liberal campuses he could and got shut down by purple haired SJWS, and fed off of it. Spencer et al are doing basically the same thing. We would be a lot better off making them look like the impotent losers they are then letting them coopt us into making them look bigger or more threatening than they are.

UVA is out of session, there's hardly anyone on campus normally. There's absolutely no harm in letting 100 idiots march around the park by themselves looking silly. Framing it as America's descent into Nazism is stupid and hysterical, gives cover to the actual threat4, and runs the risk of being a self-fulfilling prophecy.

TL:DR
Don't signal boost neo-Nazis by making them more threatening than they are, and don't believe headlines that make things sound scary. America is safer5 and more progressive than it has ever been. There is work to do and progress to make, but anyone telling you everything is shit either doesn't know what they're talking about or is lying to you.

by HawkingtonHawkington, 13 Aug 2017 22:37

The time for Jamie to betray Cersei was somewhere around the time (just before or just after) she blew up a chunk of her own capitol and their son committed suicide. That path's gone, including the dramatic irony of Jamie removing Cersei in time for Danerys to just waltz right in.

Right now, I can't decide if the proper dramatic path is for Jamie to walk out a window or go north and take the black. Either way, really.

@FM

Also, IIRC and AFAIK, the valonqar thing wasn't mentioned at all in the show. The only part of Cersei's prophecy we got was about the deaths of her children and the queen who would replace her.

by Delta VDelta V, 12 Aug 2017 22:59
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